Talk:Signet of Illusions
Nerf imminent Can't wait to try it out for the five minutes before it will get nerfed :D [[User:Foo|'Foo']] 18:53, 19 September 2006 (CDT) :Balancing this skill is all a matter of recharge time. Also, this skill may be an elite, which rules out some of the most powerful combos. -- 04:23, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::I predict it will 1) be an elite; 2) have an obscene recharge. Otherwise you're just going to have mesmer support casters running this in GvG alongside Prot Spirit and goodness knows what. Kessel 09:02, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :::They could make the recharge and duration like the one existing one, Arcane Mimicry, yet make it elite. That sounds pretty balanced — Skuld 09:29, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::::It's confirmed that it's an elite skill. -- 04:57, 21 September 2006 (CDT) :::::Out of interest, do you have a link? Kessel 07:36, 21 September 2006 (CDT) :Really balanced i'd say, as there are very easy ways to counter this. Rust, anyone? Ignorance, maybe? -- Sai Qui 07:19, 24 September 2006 (CDT) ::Yeah, I've tested this out in RA, it's obvious weakness is the fact that it had to be constantly used over and over, this effectively causes all of your spells to cast significantly longer, which is why FC will be very important. Another major weakness is that it would rely completely on the one signet not being interrupted or diverted, or your whole build is screwed. And as everyone knows, a build that is reliant on one skill is food for R-spikers. I think this skill is far from needing a nerf.(Terra Xin 05:34, 11 October 2006 (CDT)) "Mimic" build This sounds totally awesome. About a week after Guild Wars came out (has it been almost 1.5 years already?), I was messing around with the Inspired skills, thinking I could make a sort of "mimic" mesmer that would steal and use the abilities of its enemies. Unfortunately, the skills didn't work that way, and I even sent a message to ANet asking if it was a bug. It was not, however, and I pretty much just stopped playing that mesmer right then and there. I'm really hoping that this skill will have a low enough recharge that a "mimic" build will actually be feasible (as opposed to only being able to effectively use a copied ability once every minute or so). 404notfound 19:17, 19 September 2006 (CDT) :OR you can use primary attribute skills from your secondary profession. A mesmer can now use Primal Rage or something! Go him! Actually, I'm thinking about Elemental Attunement, but wait, no... perhaps Conjure? I mean, by having 3 slots, you can a level 16 conjure, PLUS level 16 random skill. Or you can use it to get a level 16 Divine Boon or something. I don't know, I have no good ideas, but any maintained or long lasting enchantment could potentially benefit from this. --Silk Weaker ::Nah, Primal Rage wouldn't work, as it isn't a spell. But anyway, this skill will be a BREAKTHROUGH for new Mesmer builds. I can't wait to play around with it. Steal enemy spells, utilize spells of party members and use spells from your secondary profession to full effect. :) -- 04:09, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :::Mesmers could easily smite-bond 600hpMonks in uw. [[User:Foo|'Foo']] 09:45, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :Certainly sounds interesting. The first skill that enables one proffession to have the ability to make use of their secondary profession's Primary Attribute spells. I'm guessing this isn't an Elite Skill since they didn't mention so on the GW site? --SK 10:40, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::Even better: You can use the secondary profession's primary attribute spells with the max possible attribute rank, including the bonus of headgear and superior runes! ::Overall, this skill will make the Mesmer a VERY versatile profession. I expect the popularity of mesmers in PvE to increase quite a bit just because of this skill. SoI will be for mesmers what SS is for curse necros. -- 10:52, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :::Shame the SOI'ed spell can't be echoed --SK 11:05, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::::That's where Mantra of Inscriptions comes in. :) --Karlos 11:10, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :::::Energy will soon be a problem :) --SK 12:11, 20 September 2006 (CDT) :::::: Doubt it — Skuld 12:23, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::::::: Yeah, how would energy be a problem unless this skill is incredibly misused? and even if it is misused, slap on Ether Sig +Keystone Sig + echo (unless this is an elite, i can only go on the book) and any other skills like that--Daniel Rendat 19:00, 20 September 2006 (CDT) ::::::::I've always thought Mimic was underused, as even for a /Me it can be good (an E/Me copying another ele's Elemental Attunement always sprung to mind). With this skill not only is that sort of thing an option, but a Me/ can equip skills from even the secondary's primary attribute and reap the benefits. Now the mesmer will be the master of subverting. As for it being an elite, personally I think it really has to be. It's too damn useful and would open up too many (perhaps) unbalancing possibilities if it were a normal skill. RossMM 15:17, 21 September 2006 (CDT) :::::::::Good thing it's elite, wouldn't want Me/N to replace us SS users! =) ::::::::::Example: SS put on you, you use inspired hex, then signet of illusions, and viola. :::::::::::Imagine: Signet of Illusions + Mantra of Persistance + Diversion. You'd have the option to put 0 attribute points under Domination and use the rest under..Illusion, Fast Casting and Inspiration. Not only that, you'd have an 11 second Diversion if this works.--Entheos Geon 21:21, 26 September 2006 (CDT) ::::::::::::Tested this. Signet of Illusions + Mantra of Persistance + Diversion combo doesn't increase Diversion's duration.--Mira 18:50, 12 December 2006 (CST) ::::::::::::Energy could be a problem if Primal Echoes goes up, but otherwise, Arcane Mimicry and SoI could be nice. This skill provides more benefits than just mimics though, as it allows 16 in every attribute of your primary and secondary profession, with just 1 superior rune, so 12+3+1 Illusion and 12+1 Fast Casting will probably become a great build, perhaps utilising long casting ele spells with the power of a 16 attribute spell, from different attributes, this skill will surely be a staple on some certain Mesmers Skill Bars. --Terrifi Cani 10:55, 30 September 2006 (CDT) ::::::::::::Yep, The staple build for SoI is obviously going to be R16 Illu, R13 FC. But you'd have to put points into another attribute line if there is a non-spell skill that you need to use, but I think distortion covers that^^. And that FC Signet enchantment will be a must also. I just looked a bit at the skill again, and had another idea (though I'm sure somebody's already thought of it): take SoI, Arcane Thievery, Arcane Mimicry, Inspired Hex, and Inspired Enchantment, except don't put any points into domination or inspiration. If you use SoI with Inspired Hex and have illusion at 16 and inspiration at 0, you'll go from a net 2 energy loss (without SoI) to a net 6 energy gain. 404notfound 13:39, 7 October 2006 (CDT) Elite confirm — Skuld 04:52, 21 September 2006 (CDT) Spell stealing? I was wondering if you could use a build that could "borrow" 3 of an opponent caster's spells, using the skills arcane echo, arcane larceny and arcane theivery AND to be able to effectively use them using this signet + mantra of inscriptions? This would also leave 2 slots for energy management/other stuff + a res sig, considering inspiration magic has skills related to energy management. I suspected this build could work since you would have the stats only in domination magic and inspiration, and the way the signet works with any spell. I can't think of anything this wouldn't work with other then you couldn't effectively spam the stolen spells, yet you can turn into a spiker yourself. -Emeralddragon2 :Illusion is a must, Fast Cast is optional, but recommended. Why Mantra of Inscriptions? SoI recharges in 5 seconds. You have to find suitable targets for your stealing spells, cast the already stolen spells and use your energy management skills. This takes time, 5 seconds are not that long. Why Dom Magic? Just use SoI for those spells. Furthermore, a full build relying on the opponents build and your luck to catch the right spells is not what i'd call effective. It is the most obvious use, but is it the most effective? --Nemren 03:53, 27 September 2006 (CDT) ::Domination magic is for arcane larceny and arcane thievery, and you have a good point on the 5 second recharge for SoI. But you also have to remember that the stealing spells also disable your opponent's spells. Oh and I seem to have forgotten you need the stats in illusion, not inspiration(doh), which is why I suggested mantra of subscriptions earlier. Also, the stats and spells in illusion can help counter against melee fighters. So what if the build was redone to be with arcane echo, arcane larceny, arcane thievery, signet of illusions, speed debuff(kitah's burdan or imagined burdan?), defensive spell(illusion of weakness?), energy management(guilt?), and res sig, with stats in illusion and domination? -Emeralddragon2 :::This is absolutly up to you. I don't know what you try to achieve. Your proposed skills seem to target some kind of PvP Build with the mixture or speed debuff and defensive. With the given skills, you lay your casting capability complety into the enemies hand. Personally, i see more potential in a well organized team build. --Nemren 18:10, 27 September 2006 (CDT) ::::Ok, you are right about the PvP thing, and thanks for putting in your opinion about this, I hope I have a chance to borrow your skills when nightfall comes out! =D -Emeralddragon2 Gave it a whirl I played around with this in RA this morning and it's quite a lot of fun. The only downside is the 2s cast time (makes you an easy target for enemy rangers, so I brought Distortion as well) and the fact it slows casting down a bit. Other than that, A++. Energy wasn't really a problem, as I had Spirit of Failure and Drain Enchantment with me as well. I absolutely suck at coming up with solid builds, but I had a good, fun run this morning, experimenting with a number of skills from various professions. 16 Illusion, 13 Fast Casting. --dominique 03:42, 24 September 2006 (CDT) Does it include Primary Attribute Effect? For example if I was to cast this and then use an expertise skill, would I get the expertise bonus along with the skill? :Well, it only works on spells, for one. And two, I don't believe so. Otherwise you could use the signet of illusions and you'd gain a bunch of max energy from energy storage, uh.. somehow. --24.4.18.48 22:22, 25 September 2006 (CDT) :Rank in the skill only — Skuld 02:45, 26 September 2006 (CDT) Yeah, but still, this is powerful because i can make a mesmer (Fast Casting) primary and nearly spam Wail of Doom or something... i capped that on my ranger not looking at the attribute... Still, the use of powered skills from the primary attribute of other proffesions will Definatly be spawning a lot more mesmers in the battle field, Thanks everyone for takin this article i made and Editing to perfection, i'm not that good with wiki code--Daniel Rendat 13:52, 6 October 2006 (CDT) :Once again though don't bring other elites into it - only non-elite spells. --CKaz 16:30, 10 October 2006 (CDT) Has anyone tested with Necromancer Animate Spells? That would be rather nice if Mesmer minions had 16 Death Magic and 16 Spawning Power on all things they summoned. Would be rather difficult to maintain energy with lack of Soul Reaping / Boon of Creation though (can't have /Rt and /N at the same time anyways) if it were true. Sirron Eblibs 00:42, 1 December 2006 (CST) ::It makes the minions come up at the appropriate level for your illusion magic. It does nothing for spawning power passive effects, since those are not granted by a spell. --Kit Engel 01:10, 1 December 2006 (CST) :::Try it with having 5 mesmers with signet of illusions+arcane mimicry in the team and a minion master who has flesh golem. 6 lvl 26 flesh golems... :::: a bit late, but u'd get the same effect with 6 MMs anyways :P Midgetchinese 07:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC) ::::: How about with fast casting up? With a 20/20 primary and offhand set I should be able to make minions faster than opponents make bloodwells or otherwise exploit corpses... 20% of the time :) Mantra of Persistence If you were to cast a hex from another attribute line with Mantra of Persistence on, does it stack? Just curious if anyone tested that, I know someone else here already made the suggestion...heh :I've tested it. 15 FC, 15 Insp, 0 Illusions, 0 Fire. Used Mark of Rodgort as a test spell. Normal duration at 0 is 10, with Mantra of Persistance running it should have been 20 seconds if this works, but still lasted 10. So, unfortunatly, this doesn't work. --87.113.20.241 03:58, 27 September 2006 (CDT) ::Also, Mantra of Persistence calls for an Illusion Magic Hex. SoI says it just uses the attribute. Doesn't make the spell an Illusion Magic Hex. Olpindc 11:58, 29 September 2006 (CDT) :::Yeah you need to read the description carefully, nothing in it states that the skill that you use 'becomes' part of the illusion magic line. (Terra Xin 05:25, 11 October 2006 (CDT)) ::::Just thinking about a SoL that does trigger mantra of persistance... Mantra of persistance --> SoL --> Rising Bile! yummy :::::The way SoI works (as far as I understand it) is it sets the attribute level of the next spell to equal your current Illusion attribute; it does not make the next spell an illusion magic spell. Therefore using it with Mantra of Persistence won't have any effect on a hex's duration. RossMM 14:09, 21 June 2007 (CDT) HA! lol this is great.. You can cast Ressurect Chant at 1 second cast with this baby *grin* can you figure out how? Think of the power.. hey someone's dead! (1 second later) ah nice seeing you with 400 health again. Admittedly it takes up 3 prep skills not inlcuding the res to pull it off, tho it would be funny as hell you gotta admit, and it'd last for... oh 26 Resses and 50 seconds or so. or Haha! light of dwayna 1/2 second cast.. ah the funniness Or divine boon mesmer! lol wow these are funny. Especially when you consider that once you cast a maintaned enchantment with this... you only need to use the sig once (Not a fifty five 00:38, 27 September 2006 (CDT)) :At a guess, Mimicry, SoI, Revitalize, SoI, Holy Haste, SoI, Chant. Btw, mentioning a skill counter does give your game away a bit. ::Heh I'm just saying its funny, doesn't realy seem too useful. Especially the boon mesmer, I'd do that sometimes just for a laugh. Had a friend who brought disrupting chop, backbreaker, and final thrust just to weird some guy out. (Not a fifty five 08:26, 27 September 2006 (CDT)) ::: Being able to sustain multiple powerfull monk enchanments at 16 while not even a monk could prove useful against experimented teams. ::::Love this skill... if u get lazy u can just grap on this skill and take some other skills, and u get nearly instantly great build. Altought, there are more powerful skills than this, but still one of the greatest skills in game. I actually use my mesmer to bond 600hp monk in CoF —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 84.250.204.31 ( ) }. This skill is far more powerful... I removed this note because I felt it was too subjective. I've used it before with AT/AL before effectively, as there are few instances a player would not carry a spell that can be boosted by the signet. Yes, you will never know what the final outcome of your build is unless you see the skills of your opponent, but you couldn't say disabling and using their spells against them isn't an effective tactic. --Ufelder 11:24, 24 October 2006 (CDT) Most interesting spell in Nightfall. Even though it's a signet, good job. —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 220.237.103.13 ( ) }. Missing note I added in a note that outlined an important understanding that Signet of Illusions would play in the most typical builds, but it was removed and replaced witht this: "The fast recharge time makes interruption of this signet less of a concern." I'm not saying that the revised note is wrong, and after reading over what I had previously entered, I see how it could have been labelled as a flaw. So I made a new note (below the note about interruption). If you have any comments about this, please discuss it with me here before you delete it^^. -- Terra Xin 01:39, 5 November 2006 (CST) On that topic, deleting note about fast cast elementalist. Having to stop and cast a 2 second signet before every nuke is impracticle in the extreme for someone devoted to dishing out damage as fast as possible. (11:04, 21 November 2006 (CST)) I think it also might be worth noting that Symbolic Celerity can easily counter tis long cast time.--68.192.188.142 00:08, 25 November 2006 (CST) Mark of Rodgort This pwns on an illusion mesmer with secondary ele in a hex team :] — Skuld 11:11, 21 November 2006 (CST) Persistence of Memory What about builds with /Me and with long casting spells? (Korusef 10:50, 2 February 2007 (CST)) Elite Use I was messing around, and I set up to arcane mimicry Life Barrier and maintain it then arcane mimicry another person to use Boon Signet. Of course that means someone has to have them, but it is kind of interesting, perhaps it'd be good to make other elites up to a good level, maybe a spirit? You could have people just bring elites from another attribute not related just for you to lay out. A team of 8 with attributes all towards specified things can not put points into their elite but instead have their mesmer in the back doing a boon heal thing while casting out all their spirits like Famine, Wanderlust, and Lifebond on everyone while occasionally using Blood is Power. Thank Lyssa for inspiration magic, that's pretty much all you need to keep up energy I'd think. 208.117.69.128 02:10, 25 November 2006 (CST) :This only works on spells. --Fyren 02:14, 25 November 2006 (CST) ::Arcane Mimicry has such a long recharge time, its easier just to make the actual class dedicated to doing it instead (Terra Xin 03:17, 28 November 2006 (CST)) Maybe less useful than i thought =/ It seems to me that this skill has some potential, but it is definitely not with arcane mimicry/larceny. I've noticed the odd build floating around with that setup but it just doesn't work because those two skills are domination, whereas this skill, though unlinked, essentially requires a fairly high illusion magic attribute to be worth taking as an elite and to use effectively (rather than just using a non-mesmer spell or w/e at rank 12). If you try and hedge between domination and illusion, except for some exceptions (wastrel's worry as a cover hex for example) then I find you become too thinly spread for attribute points to be effective. Also, having a 2-second casting time is kind of a letdown when you are trying to exploit the mesmer's Fast Casting attribute. Your thoughts? PedroPickles 22:14, 14 December 2006 (CST) you use sig of illusions before at/al and again after you've stolen a spell... where can you capture the "signet of illusions"? where can you capture the "signet of illusions" if the garden is back to normal? Icyangel Strawberry 18:31, 15 December 2006 (CST) :Nightfallen Jahai is NOT anywhere near the Garden of Seborhin. --Ufelder 22:39, 15 December 2006 (CST) Power Block ? Did anyone test if Power Blocking a spell converted to Illusion will disable Illusion Magic spells or spells of the same attribute as the converted spell ? * Signet of Illusions doesn't change your next spell attribute (confirmed by staves attribute mods), it only uses the level of your illusion attribute for next spell instead. Power block should shut down the countered spell's natural attribute and not illusion magic.Utaku Mu Dan Thus making this skill an effective counter to power block, as even this skill isn't linnked to illusion magic.--TheDrifter 13:44, 28 December 2006 (CST) :Does that statement even make any sense? What do you even mean? First; this is a signet. It is NOT a spell. It can't be affected by power block. Second, the discussion just concluded that this signet does not change the attribute of the next spell, it just changes the green number scaling of your next spell according to your illusion attribute. Your next spell can still be hit by power block. This signet has nothing to do with it. --130.95.105.243 00:23, 18 June 2007 (CDT) ::I think I get it. A Signet of Illusions build can effectively use skills from a number of attributes, so Signet of Illusions might only disable one or two skills instead of shutting down half your skillbar. -- Gordon Ecker 01:51, 18 June 2007 (CDT) Divine Boon A Me/Mo fast casting healer, w/ 12 + 1 + 3 illusion, 11 heal or protection prayers, and 6 + 3 fast cast, using sig of illusions for divine boon, maybe bringing an illusion hex for support degen. How does that sound?--Zamanee 22:55, 1 February 2007 (CST) :Thought of it, won't work. At least not in pvp. One of the greatest parts of divine boon is its compatability with contemplation of purity, given that they're both divine favor. That and I'd take 14 divine favor (+50hp) over 9 fast casting (~-1/4 casting speed) any day in protection prayers, and probably in healing prayers too. Also you wouldn't be able to mix healing and prot in a fast cast healer, the attribute loss from no minor runes puts too much stress on it. (Not a fifty five 10:58, 2 February 2007 (CST)) What is Procs guys... Just wondering. [[User:Readem|'Readem']] (''talk''* ) 01:34, 15 April 2007 (CDT) :It refers to the (generally percentage-based) triggering of an effect. Wikipedia doesn't have an article on it, but I found one here. -- Gordon Ecker 02:11, 15 April 2007 (CDT) ::Meh. Unless we link it to some (reliable) source, I don't think it should stay. Replaced with Blessing for now. -Auron 02:33, 15 April 2007 (CDT) :::I have personally tested it on Isle of the Nameless with 20% +1 offhand items, details are here. I've also created an article for proc. -- Gordon Ecker 03:13, 15 April 2007 (CDT) ::::I hardly ever hear the term used in GW, really only in other MMOs. I replaced it. --Fyren 04:13, 15 April 2007 (CDT) Testing with my R/Me, it appears to work on sunspear skills, casting cry of pain with signet of illusions active changed the damage, but for some reason always subtracted 4 from the illusions rank, casting at r12 illusions gave a r8 cry of pain :A bit late to the discussion but to be a smartass: (P)rogrammed ®andom (OC)curence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proc -- 11:45, November 3, 2009 (UTC) Allegiance and Sunspear skills Does this work with them? M s4 13:23, 18 June 2007 (CDT) :Just tried it, yes they do, but it seems to just give u a maxed title version even at 16 illusion, w/ the mesmer sunspear skill i was doing 104 dmg and w/o the sig of illusions, 80 (my mesmer is sunspear 7) I only tried it on that one skill though.Eric368 17:46, 18 June 2007 (CDT) Does this work with the Lightbringer skill? —''The preceding unsigned comment was added by'' 65.30.79.194 ( ) }. :Nope, neither of them are spells. -- Gordon Ecker 02:42, 10 July 2007 (CDT) About +1 staff wrappings I smite Foundry with this on my mesmer, and I'm not sure whether I should be using a +1 20% smite wrapping, or illusion. Basically, does the spell essentially get converted to illusion magic first, or does it get the +1 bonus and then become linked to illusion? Is it even possible to trigger the +1 with this? I've done a little testing with two different staves, but the evidence is inconclusive so far. — image:azayasig.jpg Azaya 11:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT) :While Signet of Illusions is active, +1 staff wrappings and inscriptions have no effect, regardless of the staff wrapping's type or the spell's original attribute. Staff wrappings of Illusion Magic don't even affect Illusion Magic spells while SoI is active. -- Gordon Ecker 16:15, 5 September 2007 (CDT) Asura's Summoning Spells, Splinter Weapon, others... Well this works great with Summon Ruby Djinn and any of the other summons. It's quite nice having a level 21 Ruby Djinn following you around. I have also been bringing SoL and Splinter Weapon along and casting it onto my guildmate who is a Dervish. Amazing amount of damage. Also works very well with Spirit Rift. Works very well with Ether Nightmare too. Instant -10 degen it seems like. My Mesmer is a support unit now with interrupts. Unindal 11:45, 6 September 2007 (CDT) Kinetic Armor If you cast Kinetic Armor with this, when it is recharged by using a spell does it keep the original attribute rank? Diablo The Punisher 08:36, 19 September 2007 (CDT) ::Yes 71.112.162.97 04:40, 7 April 2008 (UTC) Recent buff Yay gimmick builds! --68.102.128.17 04:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC) :Don't think you can call them gimmick much longer, ANet really wants to see this skill in use :) (T/ ) 04:35, 16 October 2007 (UTC) :: This is now easily one of the best elites for PvE ever if you have access to GW:EN PvE spells. And one of the most enjoyable ones too :) (Sig of Illusions, Pain Inverter, Smooth Criminal, Ebon assassin support pawns everything) :Yeah or Signet of Illusions+Ether nightmare+Cry of Pain....Ebon Assassin support is great for taking down stupid dolyak monks.--JRyan 18:36, 27 October 2007 (UTC) Stack Bug fixed It appears the 'stacking' bug has been fixed in the latest update. If you use SoI again, it will refresh your current 'next spells' counter to max. Bug was removed from page Pain Inverter? Does this actually work for Pain Inverter? -- [[User:Hellbringer|'¿ĤëĻĺßŔîÑģЄŗ?']] (talk| ) 20:53, 12 November 2007 (UTC) :Yup Ursan This + Arcane Mimicry on Ursan anyone? 17:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC) :Sorry to burst ya bubble, but Ursan != Spell, so it wont work. --- -- (s)talkpage 18:00, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Update on 20080807 Was using my Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support / Arcane Echo / Signet of Illusions character today. My summoned Assassins are now only level 20. Given how many PvE skills were changed in this update the whole PvE rank 10+ thing may no longer be accurate. Xira Arien 04:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC) AI Has anyone else noticed inconsistencies in how Heroes handle this signet? I've had spans where they just ignore it entirely for around 30 seconds. They also seem to favor using it with energy management over offense, though that could be attributed to the timing of when they use it. Renian (T|L|B) 06:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC) :I just gave up trying to use this with heroes, since if I wanted anything remotely useful I had to excessively micro and try to remember how many charges were left. It's only worth using with 16 Illusion really, and if I'm going to gimp a hero like that I expect better results... :\ Ah well, it's still fine for the smiter in 600/Smite. :One thing I could swear, is that SoI changes the AI for certain skills - by that I mean, if you take one with SoI and one without, and all their other skills are the same. If you activate SoI for one, and then let them do as they please, they will use the skills differently. It might have to do with changed attribute, or something else. But yeah, heroes fail at this. (T/ ) 11:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)